Comms Shouldn’t Report to Marketing—Here’s Why with Roberto Munoz, CEO & Founder at Munoz Communications

The phrase “fractional comms leader” might sound like consulting fluff—but Roberto Muñoz is here to tell you it’s anything but.

In this episode, Becca and Parry get real with Roberto about:

— The rise of the fractional Chief Communications Officer
 — Why comms gets sidelined while marketing gets the glory
 — The C-suite’s collective misunderstanding of what comms actually does
— How comms should never be reporting to marketing (we said what we said)
— And what AI means for the future of measurement, media, and the PR pricing model

We talk measurement that matters (spoiler: it’s not impressions), why real thought leadership can’t be AI-generated, and the emotional gymnastics required to work in comms while being wildly underestimated by your peers.

And yes, there’s yelling about “thrilled to announce.”

This one’s for the comms pros who are sick of being the hospitality suite in the C-suite. If you've ever had to explain your value while delivering it, you're gonna feel this in your bones.

👊 No fluff. No filters. Just the truth about this wild industry we’re in.

Transcript

[00:00:34] Becca: Hello, and welcome to today's episode of the Under Embargo Podcast. I am your co-host, Becca Chambers. I'm CMO of Scale Venture Partners, and I am joined by my co-host and partner in crime, Perry Hedrick, who is founder of. Crackle pr and today we are lucky to be joined by Roberto Munoz, CEO, and founder of Munoz Communications, which is a strategic comms consultancy that helps businesses navigate growth and transformation.

I did a little bit of LinkedIn stocking and saw that he's been, um, well he is been in comms for over 20 years, but he's been at some pretty cool organizations, um, from HSBC, Fannie Mae, Jaguar, which is cool Land Rover. And, um, we've been connected for a really long time on LinkedIn and we're in some of the same.

Um, communications groups and his name is always coming up in conversations and somehow we have never been on a call together, so I'm really excited for us to chat and welcome to the show. I.

[00:02:13] Roberto: Welcome. Thank you. The power of LinkedIn bringing us together. I know 

[00:02:18] Parry: similarly you've been in my orbit on LinkedIn for, I don't know, a couple years at least.

And, um, we've had a couple of back and forths and all that, and it's one of those things where how do you not have a conversation with somebody that's so often in your, in your midst? Um, I'm glad we're having it today. I. 

[00:02:33] Becca: You wanna hear your name was literally spoken in a room on Tuesday night. I was at an event and, uh, somebody mentioned that they were listening to the Under embargo or watching the podcast, and I was like, Ooh, yay.

Which one did you watch? And they mentioned which one they watched. And I was saying how I was looking for guests and somebody mentioned. Why don't you have Roberto on? And I was like, he is the next recording that we have. That is wild. So there you go. I'm like 

[00:03:02] Roberto: an influencer in a way I didn't even know.

You didn't even know, but your name 

[00:03:06] Becca: is being spoken in rooms of comms professionals. Oh, that's wonderful. Yeah. So very, I wanna 

[00:03:11] Parry: be in a room where people speak my name and, and where there's opportunity. So good for you, 

[00:03:16] Becca: Eric. Well, your podcast was being spoken about, so that's great. Which is nice. 

[00:03:20] Parry: I, I'll, I'll accept that.

[00:03:21] Becca: Um, so I guess, where do we wanna start? Um, I have a whole list of topics, but like, uh, one thing that people always ask me, so I'm gonna ask you because it's in your profile, what. Is a fractional chief communications officer. And what do they actually do? 

[00:03:41] Roberto: Interesting because, and I, and I think there's actually some debate that should be had around how fractional chief communications officers use, 'cause it's actually a polarizing topic.

Totally. That's why I'm, is it interim, is it fractional? I and I, you know, I, I. The rise of fractional work in other functions in other areas has been something like fractional kind of finance, uh, fractional marketing officer. And I think they're more established in a way that it's kind of the ability to come in either as a maternity cover at a major inflection point for the company.

They're not ready to hire the full-time person, but they need the senior quality role to come in. Um, you know, coming in, building systems, building processes, getting the engine set up or just kind of keeping the wheels turning when there's a, a moment that they need to have a really senior comms person in the room.

[00:04:30] Becca: Prices 

[00:04:30] Roberto: so. Correct crisis. I, I, I, I think crisis would be part of what a fractional would do, but it wouldn't necessarily be the reason that you're brought in as a fractional, unless it was like a sustaining crisis, right? Mm-hmm. Like it was something that you would want. I think it's, there's so many different verticals of what a fractional role will do that it's almost like a proxy, um, pe comms that comes in to the organization.

But I, I think the interesting di di dichotomy here for me is that fractional. So when you're trying to explain it to the market. Like fractional is kind of hard to describe in the first place. And I think also what comms does, as we all know, can be really difficult to explain. So no, what, so branding fractional communications officer requires lots of asterisk and sub underneath of it.

Uh, so maybe there's a branding issue here, but, um, but that, that, that's, that's, that's, uh. One of the services I, I offer, especially for growth stage businesses, they really need, you know, to bring somebody in, but they might not be ready to hire a full-time person. 

[00:05:27] Parry: How long are your engagements typically?

Or is there No typical amount of every, every company's a snowflake. Yeah, I mean, I guess there's 

[00:05:34] Roberto: a, a bit of a snowflake, but you kind of wanna be there long enough to make a meaningful difference, right? So I think it's like more of the minimum threshold of like, you know, you at least wanna be there for three months, if not longer.

But it really does change depending, you know, sometimes they offer you the job to come in. Uh, so it could be like a try before you buy. I think it, other interesting thing is if you apply for a job and maybe you don't get it, or that they're, they're having trouble finding or filling the seat. Offering to be a fractional in the interim, right, if there's a try before you buy for the company.

But it's also interesting that maybe they do need to paper over the cracks, but you might not have been the long-term fit, but you could be the short term solution. I've actually found a couple of roles that, uh, were open where they just needed somebody to slot in while the hiring process was taking longer.

[00:06:17] Becca: I also think a lot of companies don't really, I mean, to your point, people don't know what comms does. So when they, they're like, we need somebody to solve this problem, but we only need them for a few months and it's not really a full-time whatever. And then you come in and you do it, and then you're also doing 400 other things.

And then they're like, oh shit, we really do need somebody full-time to do this and lead this function in a real meaningful way. And then it becomes a role. So it's almost like it's not even just try before you buy. It's like. Yeah, prove out value of comms to people that didn't really understand what the value of comms was.

So I actually think what you're doing is like a really important kind of a, it, it's a cool way for you to like expand the comms function in ways that, um. For people who don't necessarily value it right now. Right, 

[00:07:05] Roberto: right. Yeah, it's, it's interesting too because if you're looking at it like as a product, as a commodity, like it, it is harder to explain and then all of a sudden it becomes like murkier waters of how much does that cost?

But I don't understand the value of it. But when you're inside and you're actually have the relationship, the trust, the education around it, it becomes a lot easier to say. Oh, actually now we should go look at this. Or do you have audience personas? Do you have messaging swim way like, and do you have a channel strategy where I think if you try to sort of put that up front, it might put somebody's back against the wall because they don't fully understand it.

But when you're inside of the, of the machine, it's much easier, I think, to build that rapport and that that future runway of work. 

[00:07:44] Becca: And then after three months taking it away like, yeah, you know. Good luck right now. You've built the thing and shown the value and you can't just like, walk out and say good luck, right?

[00:07:53] Parry: Yeah. Are you, are you, um, comfortable signing on as let's say a fractional, um, hire if the C-suite isn't really clear on what the comms function is or does though? And, and I ask that question because I always talk about, um. As a PR agency owner, I, I usually tend to walk away when I hear from the CMO or the C um, the, the head of comms that the CEO doesn't really get pr because to me that means it's gonna necessarily turn into a circular firing squad within nine months, you know, within three to nine months because.

The, the CEO who doesn't really get PR is expecting glowing coverage in like a month. Um, the CMO is in a, between a rock and a hard place trying to like deal with the PR team who's like, we can't perform miracles and, and the next thing you know, somebody's gotta go. So usually it's the PR team. So long-winded way of asking, are you comfortable signing on when you feel that out of the gate, you're gonna have to spend more time educating than you are executing?

[00:08:51] Roberto: Yeah. I mean, I think there's, there's one place where it's that they don't understand it. There's another place that they're sort of feel that they could control it or they're, they, they, they, they don't respect it. And I think that for me, it's like if you didn't respect communications and sort of what it could be, that's one place.

But to, to have an open mind and to wanna be educated because a lot of. A lot of growth stage CEOs, you know, they're, they really haven't been in a place where they've had to really understand strategic communications beyond kind of the distribution of the channel. Right. But even if that, so I, I found that, you know, if I walked away from everything in some of those, I feel like I might walk away from more business than I would want to.

Right. Um, but, but I'll say I do. It is really nice when A CMO is in place because that I've found, um, because one, they hired the CMO for the comms person. Right. Because they need to. They need to get that muscle moving faster. But also you have, usually with the CMO, at least, you're kind of speaking a similar language where I think that they're inside and they can help you navigate the politics and they actually understand a little bit of what you do.

If not, you know, they've done the role in other ways. But I find that, that actually, that bridge is somewhat even more helpful than, uh, than any other role when I'm into a fractional position. 

[00:10:00] Becca: Can I ask you, since you brought up the CMO, um. And I have strong opinions about this. Ooh. Do you think that comms should sit within marketing, or do you think that comms should be its own, you know, its own function?

The way that marketing is its own function in sales is its own function. 

[00:10:19] Roberto: I mean, I, I firmly believe that it should be its own function. Um, you know, I've been in different reporting lines and I've been in places that, you know, the structure is, you know, the, the further away they're always like, oh, well.

You're not reporting directly to the CEO E but you'll have a direct line of sight. Yeah. But you're not in the board meeting, not dotted line. 

[00:10:37] Becca: Right. It's a, I call it the small C. You're a small C 'cause you don't get the big C at the at in the C-suite. 

[00:10:45] Roberto: Mm-hmm. Right. And like how can somebody rep who doesn't understand our function in the way that we do?

Represent our work and big conversations that need the, or like, they don't even know necessarily what to listen for. 

[00:10:56] Becca: We're looking around corners. We can't look around corners if we're not like in the fucking room to look around the corner, you know, like, come on. No, I, 

[00:11:03] Roberto: I, I fully agree. I, I, I do think that comms is having a mo, I mean, no, we're having a moment for all the, for, you know, for lots of reasons, right?

The pandemic, but, you know, right. Uh, the turbulence and politically, economically. But you know, I, I do think that we've moved ourselves further up the conveyor belt where, uh, you know, previously I, I, I signed to equate this where the HR function was like 10, 15 years ago. They were, there was more like benefits and, you know, hiring, uh, you know, sort of like pro forma kind of HR policies.

Where now if you look at hr, it's like a really strategic function that's got tools and measurements and sort of a broader purview. I think comms is. One, I think that we've put our hand up, but I also think that for us to continue to be our own vertical, which I think we need to, we also need the right skills.

We need the right, uh, you know, we need the right growing up talent across the trainings. Uh, so I, I think that as the function does. Own that space. We also have a responsibility, uh, in order to be able to speak like a business leader, not just a comms leader. So, I, I, 

[00:12:05] Parry: sorry, go ahead Perry. That's okay. I, I wrote a, a LinkedIn post last year at some point, and I had a, it was a very hot take.

I came in hot with this one, which was that marketing should actually report to comms. Uh, and I defended it in the, in the, in the post. And as you can imagine, there was a lot of inherent tension to that hot take. So it, it took off, like it blew up. And, you know, all the comm people were DMing me like, thank God somebody finally said it.

And the marketing people were like, are you crazy? We right. Exactly. Handle all. And then my thinking has evolved over time where I, I, I think at the very least, marketing and comms should be on, on similar footing. And I think I'll take it a step further and, and, and ask you what I am starting to believe now, which is that marketing and comms may both ladder up to brand, which oversees the whole damn thing.

There should be a key brand officer. What do you think about that as a, as a hierarchical structure? 

[00:12:56] Roberto: Like, or like brand or like cus or like Chief Customer Officer, right. Or something. Somebody that's got the touchpoint and the purview. I, I think, I think that makes, I think that makes sense. And I, I, I think that we're, we're kind of all playing nice in the same, I mean we're, we're, we're like, we kind of have our elbows up like, oh, it's marketing.

Oh it's comms. Oh, it's hr. Because I think that's the other, if you put the Venn diagram together, HR is the problem. 

[00:13:17] Becca: Can I interrupt though? The problem with everyone you just said is each one of those groups has a particular stakeholder. Comms is all of the stakeholders. So HR employees, right? Marketing customers, right?

Like e every group has its own stakeholder, but comms is all of the stakeholders. So I just feel like you can't, um, I don't know, you can't bucket us in the same way that. We're not as niche. We have to have a higher, yeah, a more strategic view of the whole business than all of these other groups Do. 

[00:13:52] Roberto: I, I agree.

I I, but there also is the need no matter how the report, like put reporting aside and I don't know, that's hard to do, but like we all do have a piece of the pie that comes together in a way that makes it whole. I You put culture together with sort of talent acquisition, uh, and retention. Putting it together with brand, putting it together with customer like and I.

That maybe sometimes there's a little bit too much protectionism of who owns what, but at the end of the day, if you're not all working together to collectively achieve that, it, it's just not gonna work. Right. You're in silos across, and you can actually see that on your website sometimes and like no, they're not talking to each other.

Uh uh totally. But so I just think that, so I do think the reporting conversation's important, but I think actually the. The way in which the operating model underneath of it pins it together in a way that understands the interdependencies is equally important, if not more. In some ways, 

[00:14:45] Becca: and I think that like companies that have a CEO that really value a comms person as advisor are the ones that are elevating like the whole comms function, right?

It's not just that they're like, oh, I have my exec comms person who's my sidekick or my chief of staff. It's like they have their. Head of comms who they value as also a. Executive advisor like everybody else in the C-suite. And so the whole comms function at the company is elevated. And I think that's kind of the future of how comms moves up in the world.

But we need more CEOs who, um, see that value because it really is like we, we are the help us, help you crew. And I wish more people saw that. Like all we're here to do is make. Everybody else look better, make your job easier, and like, we're just here to like usher you into a better era. So just like, help us help if only, if 

[00:15:39] Parry: only it weren't that pesky measurement piece, if that 

[00:15:41] Becca: piece 

[00:15:43] Parry: Yeah.

Because that's ultimately what it boils down to. It's right, like everything you've said is right. Becca and, and Roberto. Like, you know, the, the job we do is multifaceted. It's a. Big, sprawling, hairy number of things that we are on top of and having to manage and, and build a halo effect around and, and all that.

But at the end of the day, if the pipeline isn't crackling with leads, then ultimately. Heads roll. And that's comms and that's PR because of the, the, the lack of a one-to-one relationship between what we do and the bottom line. And I, I think that is a hard thing to overcome, which is why we're always having to re-explain what it is we do and why it matters.

And when the economy goes south, why our heads roll down the stairs. And, um, you know, we wait until the, until the, uh, the, the cooler heads prevail and the green shoots come back. 

[00:16:28] Becca: Amen. I 

[00:16:29] Roberto: do think that measurement, because I, I agree with that, that, uh, our function measurement's an area I think that we collectively as an industry need to focus on more.

I, I, you know, sitting in board meetings and sitting in house roles where, you know, you're looking at everybody's sort of scorecards and there's red amber greens and there's specific metrics and, you know, measure what matters and, you know, and, and I think that. There, there is art to the world. We do a lot and there is the gut, but there's also some science to it.

And I, um, obviously not to sound, there's a lot of science to it and I think that finding measurements and the tools to help to support that is really important for our function. Increasingly as we do get the seat at the table so that we're speaking the same language as the rest of the business. And I think that automatically gives credibility and also helps to drive the business forward and the function forward in a, a smarter way.

So I, I, I, I just think we're a little nascent in that area, and I'm excited to see. How we build more of those types of tools and competencies in our functional areas. Ai. Ai. I'm interested in what you all think. 

[00:17:34] Becca: I think AI is gonna be really helpful for us. I think that's been like a blind spot for us.

It's just like, how do we aggregate? Like I. Like shifts in sentiment in real time, right? Like that's a really hard thing to do. Um, so AI for sure, we were just, one of our recent podcasts was, um, with the, uh, head of comms at Meltwater and we were talking about how this is gonna change the game and it totally is umm right.

I also think that there needs to be a recognition that no matter what, whether you're, whether it's a campaign, whether you're looking at brand over time, like. Every thing is going to be measured differently. Like there's not gonna be just like a standard set of metrics that are gonna work. Every, like for you and your clients, you're not just gonna go in and be like, well, this is what I measure every time I go somewhere.

Right, right. And I think comms, people need to just like get comfortable with going in and learning how to create new dashboards and getting like, yes, it is a huge pain in the ass to create bespoke ways of measuring things. But if you're creating a campaign, what are the goals you're trying to achieve?

How are you gonna measure those? You can't just say, oh, here's share of voice, like. How is that impression? Yeah, impressions. 4 billion people saw this article. 

[00:18:52] Parry: What? Wait, add value equivalency. Come on man. 

[00:18:55] Becca: I know. And it's like, oh hey, your brand launch got 900,000 views. And it's like. By who? Well, well, we don't know.

Oh, cool. I mean, it's just one of those things and like, yes, vanity metrics, whatever, and I just like, how do we translate that into value? That's our problem. We can spout fucking metrics. Sorry, all the F-bombs today. It's just, I'm a little punchy this morning. 

[00:19:19] Parry: Current mood 

[00:19:20] Becca: spout, all of the metrics all day, and we can get AI to tell us things, but if we don't translate that into like the value that it.

It brings the outcome that we're driving, then who cares? And I think that's kind of like where we need to start focusing as comms people. We're storytellers like the So what part? Let's give the, give the um. I. Don't bury the lead people. 

[00:19:44] Roberto: Yeah. Well, and I said this earlier, but to dig into it, like speaking the language of the business is a big thought that I always think about because it's like everybody, most businesses, data and measurement is something that's a pretty high muscle for folks, right?

Like they, they, they think that way. They think about the finances, the p and ls, and how do we steering the organization. And I think to actively participate in that conversation, if we are able to speak that language, it's really important to not just get the credibility and the trust, but to be able to like come into the room with something that feels tangible, linked to business goals and comms goals.

That's like, this is actually what we're driving and we should change this. We should, we should, we should alter this, we should iterate on this. And I, I just, I, I think that conversation needs to be more robust and that's the way to get the credibility. 

[00:20:34] Becca: And as a. Comms leader, like guys, if we're putting out this press release, what is the point of this?

What goal are we trying to drive with this? Right? And starting to like talk to your teams about it so that they start to understand, mm-hmm. When they're doing things, why are they doing it so that they can start to inject more strategic lens on things. I just think that's how we all get started. Does this need to go over 

[00:20:56] Parry: the wire?

Should this maybe just go on our website? Maybe LinkedIn, maybe. Maybe this could have been a LinkedIn post instead, why are we doing all of this? Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. 

[00:21:06] Roberto: No. It is funny though. Sometimes you go and do a, like, you know, you, you'll have done your comm strategy, you're targeting the right audience with the, you know, the blog is the right answer.

Or the newsletter, which is a, it's a niche, but it was a hundred percent for the right target. And you know, you're so proud of that campaign. And then you go into the board meeting and there's, you know, the trade publication cover that you know, you didn't need to be in, but it was a pet project of one of the leaders.

And they're like touting it around the meeting of like, look how great this is. Put that on my fridge. No one read that. You know, it didn't mean our audience, but it's just so funny how like that again, one to be in the room to make sure that you can correct on that type of thing, versus allowing that to become the right answer, but also just to do the education around, okay, well that was a great thing that we have our picture on the front of that, but we go back to our goals and our audience and our messaging.

This is not driving the outcome that we need. And I think that, you know, you don't wanna do it the right, the right way, but I, I've seen that happen so many times that it actually then rearranges your comm strategy and you're like, wait, that's, that's not, not the right place. Sorry. 

[00:22:09] Becca: That is like maybe the most important point is that yes, there is some amount of this that is on the comms leaders to put it in the language that business people understand, but it is also on business people.

To listen to comms leaders and allow us to be in the room so that you're not just flashing stupid shit and, and saying, Hey, look at what we did when we're telling you that's not what moves the needle, or that's not the thing that matters right now, or that's not the message that. Our audiences need to hear because we are the experts.

And I think that there is this like view of like, oh, but everyone knows how to do comms. So like Right. You know, and, and I find that so frustrating and I find the, the lack of, um, desire to learn in the it from the business suite of people. Um. Lack of desire to learn from real communications leaders who have amazing pedigrees.

I find that so frustrating, and I know that most communications leaders find that so frustrating, but I don't see that in other industries. I don't see people talking down to finance people like, like their kindergartners. Like, oh hey, legal. 

[00:23:18] Parry: Legal, for example. Yeah, 

[00:23:19] Becca: right. Cute spreadsheet. Hey, can I, I have a template.

Hey, I'm a comms leader, but let me give you my template for, um, for Excel, Mr. Finance guy, like, are you kidding me? But they have no problem doing that for me all day long. All day long. Right, right, right. 

[00:23:35] Roberto: It's like, like you, you should build your data center center in Kansas. Yeah. I just think that's the right answer.

You know, it's like, wait, uh, we've done all the research and that's not the right answer. Answer. Mm-hmm. I think the interesting rub for me slightly though, is that. Everybody in a business is a communicator. It's, you know, it's in your job description, you know, it literally is. Uh, and so there's the, you know, there's the strategic communications function that we don't want to bottleneck and we don't want to own everything.

But the teach the teacher, you know, building the skills for leaders to be better communicators is important. And I think that there's an interesting rub there though, where like, I'm not doing a whole lot of like. Data work, right? In terms of like it work, right? But everybody in the business is required to be a communicator, so there is like a different.

Slightly different error, 

[00:24:23] Becca: but I have to make spreadsheets to make a budget. I have to make slides to, you know, do my job and I'm not, 

[00:24:30] Parry: you have to beautify and purify and sify everything. I just, 

[00:24:36] Becca: comms. What it really is, is it's belittling our people pull our role. All day, every day. And they do it to senior level people.

And it's bad enough when it happens to junior level people. Like, I'm so excited by the way that people talk to even mid and junior level comms people, but like I see it happen to senior level comms people all the time. And we are used to it and we are friendly and it's part of our job, so we kind of allow it and we take it.

But it is kind of bullshit that we, um. Have to also be the hospitality suite in Yeah, the C-suite if we're invited. Uhhuh, a hundred percent. Everybody 

[00:25:12] Parry: thinks that they can do our jobs, which is fun. It's, it's always fun when, when it's cute, everybody, yeah, in your universe thinks they can do your job just as good as you.

Or, you know, has a solution that they could just put into chat GPT and now they're experts. Like, that's always fun. And I don't see that actually improving in the advent of ai. I feel like that's gonna get worse. Not better, because everybody has easy access to seemingly intelligent sounding responses that they can then parrot back, um, like everybody else, which.

Is my way to transition back to the AI thing a little bit because I wanted to ask you, Roberto. Um, when we talk about the AI piece, I, I think that our PR model is gonna change radically. Like I have a value, a value-based model where I, I charge, you know, X amount based on the 10,000 hours of knowledge of acquired to, to do the job.

But a lot of big agencies and a lot of big consultancies, um, they charge by the hour. Right. So, mm-hmm. How are you gonna square that when you can use AI to do in seconds what? It used to take a team of interns or account executives, like three weeks or a month to do. So that whole, the whole billing model, the whole relationship with money is changing radically.

And I'm wondering, are you worried at all that over, you know, the next months and years that we might be commoditized to, um, in the same way that some of the, the underlings in the agencies and consultancies are today? Yeah, I mean, it's 

[00:26:33] Roberto: certainly gonna radical, I mean, radically change how we use it as a tool, but then also how that tool becomes parts of what we were doing, which is a high, uh, highly valuable skill.

You know, there's so many. If you just allow yourself to go into, like as you're going through your list of things you're doing and you're like. Is AI gonna be able to do this better than I do in two years? The answer is probably getting close to yes. You know, like I was high graphic designers, high copywriters, like right already even it's getting crazy.

I I, I've met a couple of, of different in, uh, people that are founders and CEOs that are doing AI comms tools now that are like. Building out narratives, like, you know, you have the right prompts, you know, it might not be perfect there, but it gets you 80% and you know, that's a big piece of work. Right. And it's a high value piece of work or audience segmentation and, and benchmarking against your competitors and real competitive intelligence.

Yeah. A hundred percent. That, that's just sort of nuts for like, you know, a stakeholder map, you know, that could take like a whole month. Right? But actually to be able to get that, so I, I think it's gonna radically just. Shift how we think about work. One of the things that I'm really interested in understanding more and seeing how it goes is the premium on real, on human, on authenticity.

And I, I, I, I, I have this idea and I don't know, I don't know where it's gonna go, but I'll shoot it out there. Or like, there's almost like an energy star seal of approval that might start to happen are like locally grown in the same way of like a sticker that's like. This is real. Like yeah, this is actually this person speaking and this is made by humans.

[00:28:05] Becca: Yeah, 

[00:28:06] Roberto: made, made by humans, right? Where actually that could become the premium in a world that over indexes into sort of, you know, we all see the milk toast sort of LinkedIn posts that people are writing. You know this obviously from chat GBT, but like once you see that there's a human there and you know that you're actually hearing from that human, there's.

Totally different relationship of trust and connection to that. So I think I'm really interested to see where AI can't go because it's this sort of EQ side of how we connect and relate to people as communicators, not just the functional get stuff done. And I'll be interested to see where that goes.

[00:28:41] Parry: Yeah, I think to, to that point, I, I feel that. The true, uh, pros, the true experts are going to rise in, in the whole sea of sameness thing where, you know, the, the run of the mill folks who are just out there kind of mailing it in, doing their job every day, they're gonna suffer because they are going to embrace and adapt this sort of, um, you know, banal same bullshit that everybody's.

Putting into the GPT model where it's the people that are truly creative, truly have inventive ideas, are able to express those ideas in a profoundly unique and human way. I think there's gonna be a premium, but I think the number of people is gonna be a lot smaller than it's today. I think it, I think AI is gonna help wi winnow out some of the, the posers, if you will.

Um, 

[00:29:23] Becca: but it's also. It's also the people who can take 14 AI tools and create something cool with it, rather than, like you say, the lazy people that are like, okay, prompt, spit something out and whatever. Like, yeah, everyone's gonna be using AI to do stuff, but they're gonna be like using, they're gonna be very advanced in the way that they're using it.

Right? And it's gonna be the people who are continually learning and continually. Continually iterating just like anything else, right? Like the people that are like sharpening their toolkit all the time. And I think that's who's gonna win in the next era, like agencies, right? However you guys start to scale your agency with ai.

So the agencies that start to like, okay, we have 10 humans right now in our agency. Hmm. And we do a hundred hours a week of whatever. Now we're gonna have 10 humans and we're gonna do a thousand hours of a week of whatever. Right. And that's how. You are not gonna replace people, but you're gonna do a shit load more.

And I think that's just like how we as humans, it's the only way that we're going to be able to keep up in this race. And a lot of people who are complacent and lazy and don't feel like learning are gonna get left behind very quickly. There, 

[00:30:34] Parry: there, there are people that are like five years away from retiring.

They're thinking like. Shit, should I just cash? Should I just cash in my chips? Now

[00:30:44] Becca: this is this, I mean, I'm shocked by the number of people that aren't even using Chad GPT. Now, that's like somebody saying to me that they don't even use Google. Right? Like, that's like somebody saying to me that like, if I ask them like how they get somewhere, they pull out like a map at like a paper map and like some, you know, like 

[00:31:03] Parry: what I was at a, I was at a bar, um, having some Chinese, Chinese food the other day.

And I know a lot of the people that are there and, and I was taking pictures of them and using chat GPT and saying, make this picture look like a Norman Rockwell painting. And I, and it took like, you know, 30 seconds to generate the image and I'd show it to 'em. They were looking at me like I was a fucking wizard.

Like, what the hell is that? Like, they had no idea that was even remotely possible. Like, wow. And I, and I, I was doing party trick after party trick. Everybody at the bar was coming over and I was like, this is the most rudimentary function of an ai. Um, but wow, here we are. I'm, I'm dazzling you right now.

[00:31:41] Becca: You should start charging. Be like, wait till I wait. See what else I can show you guys. I could teach you guys how to do this. 

[00:31:48] Roberto: I, I actually put a post at my office at home. I have a post-it note. That says, can AI do it better? And I I, I put it up there because there were so many times that I kept defaulting back to, okay, just write the brief or Yeah, write the proposal or, but you know, but like, get a few decks, throw 'em in there and say like, Hey, with a really good prompt.

[00:32:09] Becca: Yeah. 

[00:32:09] Roberto: You know, all of a sudden you're like, oh my gosh, I didn't even think that they were gonna be good at this. But that's like eight. I just save me three hours. You know, a 

[00:32:17] Becca: bad prompt will get you like, enough going that it'll. Save you a bunch of time. You know Exactly. 

[00:32:23] Parry: I think it was the Shopify CEO that said recently, like, we're not hiring anybody until you can prove that.

AI can't do their job better. Oh yeah. That's a pretty big shot across the bow man. And, and like, wow. Wait, did you 

[00:32:35] Becca: see that? They also just expanded their office space by a shit load. So it's like, oh 

[00:32:42] Parry: wow. What a coincidence. Oh, really? 

[00:32:43] Becca: Confusing. AI's gonna occupy their office space, I guess. 

[00:32:49] Parry: Yeah. The servers, the robots are moving in.

[00:32:51] Becca: Um, so, okay. I guess my next question, um, that I had written down when I was stalking your LinkedIn, because I thought it was super interesting that you were doing a DEI role way before DEI was even a thing. Like before DEI was a term. You had DEI in your title. So tell me about that and how that came to be and, um.

How you came Yeah. Into that role. 

[00:33:21] Roberto: Well, so I, I, when I, my first job out of school, I went to work for a boutique affinity, uh, marketing agency, a marketing communications agency in DC and this is back know, I'm not to date myself too much. This is 20 years ago. Right. But it, and de and I was very. Different then in terms of how it, what it looked like, and this is a lot of like bigger companies that were wanting to dip their toe into the L-G-B-T-Q market or into the African American market or, you know, uh, Hispanic market.

Uh, or people with disabilities even, right. You know, very segmented sort of populations. And it was kind of like a project that happened on the side, right? Mm-hmm. It would be like a ringfence thing that would be like, we wanna go breach gay, lesbian people. So it's like 

[00:34:07] Becca: a targeted, like, let's create campaign to do, 

[00:34:10] Roberto: do a partnership with.

GLAD Media Awards or with the HRC and only UN marketed the publications with specific arc that wasn't showing to gay couples, but it could be a man and a man that were kind of sitting next to each other. Yeah. Which be suggested. But, so, but giving the context here, because it's so, it was, it's such a fascinating journey over the past, you know, 20 years and over the past six months.

Right. But, um, where that became not just like the. Keep the dragons away from the castle, but you'll see if we can make some money into essential to who we are, what our values are, how we connect with consumers, with communities. And then now obviously in a very sort of different place, it's moving around, you know?

Do you put de and I in your title anymore? Do you put it on your, on your, on your experience, you know, or do you or do you get penalized and withheld funding for using it? Right, exactly. You know, and these are real questions that sort of feel like, you know, questions you don't want to have to answer because they feel sort of dark, uh, in my opinion.

Uh, but, but at the same time you also go like, you know, what does de and I mean today? And I think that everybody's still really grappling with what that question looks like, but there's a lot of companies that are. You know, changing, you know, either obviously letting the head of DE and I that came and go, or reconfiguring the departments or changing it from CSR and ESG to impact.

Yeah. Right. Uh, and so there's a lot of, I'm not, some of the guts of the machine aren't changing as much as the branding is. That's around it. Yeah. Yeah.

It's always been a red thread through my career. I mean, it's personal to me because I'm a gay man. Uh, but also, uh, it's just, I, I, I think the pendulum's gonna swing back in terms of how it relates back to values, but it's, I think a, certainly a fascinating place for communicators to be really thinking hard about this area because it's sort of a big risk oppor, it's a risk area for a business and also an opportunity for a business, depending upon how you look at it.

Uh, yeah. But getting on the. You only can be wrong right in on this slightly. Uh, but you kind of have to do a risk calculation of what's the, what's the right answer for your business. 

[00:36:22] Becca: I don't think that there's anybody who's in a harder spot than the comms leaders for this, to be honest. Mm-hmm. Because we're often in the middle of the leadership and employees.

Right. And often that is the leadership taking, uh, one perspective and employees taking another, which, or. Employees wanting leadership to have a perspective and knowing that they can't and, um, hearing a lot of pressure. I don't know. I've been in a lot of roles where I've just been kind of like sandwiched between a lot of, um, noise about like values and what's right and what's wrong.

Yeah. And just. Hating every second of it because it's like, yeah, you have to protect the reputation of the company and do what's right for the company. And sometimes that is in conflict with your own personal values and knowing what's right for the people that you work with. And all of it feels.

Horrible, and I think that's only gonna get 

[00:37:19] Parry: worse for the next little while. I'd like to think that there are companies that are taking strong stands or considering taking strong stands on the question we're talking about here, because you kind of get back from the world what you put out there and, and that's how I'm, I'm trying to live my life and build my company in that same way by, you know, I only wanna work with demonstrably good people and I am not gonna work with bigots or racists or, you know, homophobes or you name it just.

Full stop. Um, and I feel like because of that and because I'm so sort of vocal about those basic principles of decency, I tend to attract people both in terms of, um, employees and in terms of companies that respect and want to work with similar minded, uh. Group. So my, my hope is that over time, as what I think is the resistance to the current administration begins to, you know, sort of pick up steam, I think that more and more companies are going to double down on what they started to do before the, the fear was out there and the fear of retribution kind of.

Darken their doorways. And, and I'd like to think that what we're seeing here is a little bit of an extinction burst, um, from this sort of archaic, draconian way of thinking. And, and the, the, the enlight, the real enlightenment is about to happen, uh, before we know it. That's, that's my hope. Whether I'm right remains to be seen, but I choose to side with, with, uh, progress over, you know, going backward into the 19th century.

[00:38:41] Roberto: I'll, uh, I, I, I'll piggyback on it on what you said. I think it's sort of slightly broader point, but it's really, uh, specific to this conversation too is, you know, leading with values. Right? And I know that as I, I think a lot about comm strategy and how the, you know, I always say like, don't pick out the window, window curtains if you haven't built.

Foundation yet, you know, you're always, yeah. So, so when, when, when you're thinking about like communications and like purpose, mission, values, which everything's born from, values become incredibly important in this moment. Because if you go against, I think about brands like people all the time. You know, if you've got this shady friend who says they're one thing, but they're, you know, they say they're really trustworthy, but they're always late, they never pay back.

They're not very trustworthy, right? Where it's like, I think that if apply that to so many different areas of logic wouldn't, that's where communications is the mirror back to the business in so many ways. But like, what are your true values? And this test, this is really testing the resolve and brands that are being seen and leaders that are being seen to have been sort of Pollyanna towards it.

And then retrenching and changing. I mean, that's just like the friend you, you don't wanna be friends with in you. So I think that there's a real question here that brands, there's no true north. It's whatever 

[00:39:53] Parry: direction the wind's blowing, 

[00:39:55] Becca: right? The humans behind brands matter now more than they've ever mattered.

They will con that that trend is gonna continue, right? Like Mark Zuckerberg is meta, like Meta's entire brand reputation is whatever people think about Mark. Ditto. I mean, even we take out the political whatever like, uh, deal in rippling, right? Uh, with the shady ass. Uh, eyegate espionage shit going on that like, that, that was just the CEO doing shady stuff, but that whole company's brand is just 

[00:40:35] Roberto: Right, right.

[00:40:36] Becca: Toasted, and I feel like there's so much of that. And if you've got a CEO who's out there doing. I don't know, cool things saying things that your values align with, then like you're more likely to buy from that company or at least more likely to have an affinity for that company. And um, I. I dunno, this is all of our jobs, but then we're trying to convince people to do more of this.

But like why more companies don't understand that? I don't know. Like why? Like let's post this from our corporate LinkedIn handle. It's like, no, post it from your handle. Right? Right. Like you write it, write it from your voice, because that's what people care about. They don't care what. Walmart says they care what, you know, CEO says, 

[00:41:19] Parry: I think d do no harm tends to be the prevailing sort of thinking around being controversial and putting yourself out there.

I mean, you know, I, I get it. I, I get when there's a lot of stakeholders involved and there's a lot of revenue on the line, I, I get the idea of wanting to play it safe, but I, but it's the brands that don't play it safe, like the Patagonia and others that. You, you, you tend to gravitate toward if you are valuing certain sets of values that are in alignment with that.

And then similarly, the targets of the world and, and others who are getting rid of policies that we all know to be decent and right. Like they're, they're suffering. Um, and, and I think I, I, I admire the, the leaders that speak up and take a stand. And to your point, Becca, I agree. And I Go ahead. I'll say, sorry, I didn't mean to 

[00:42:00] Roberto: interrupt you.

No, that's fine. Please, that. It's interesting where if you're in a culture of an organization where it's not just only, it's, it's really difficult to put yourself out there as a leader, right? Or as a person, right? We know this. We're doing it on LinkedIn, we're doing comms. We kind of understand the art and the science around it, but.

In an organizational culture where you're not rewarded for going out there because then the risk of you being seen as I might've said, the wrong thing. And I mean to get in trouble for that, it does put paralysis in an organization, which really takes away a jewel out of our crown to be able to be out there in the human way that we're talking about.

But like, I think a big part of what I've had to do in certain, with certain clients or certain companies. Is to try to build that cultural cushion and that net around it to be like, Hey, it's really hard to go to media. And sometimes they quote you like this and, but, but to sort of get people to a place that they don't wanna be out there because they're afraid of the punitive answer that they said something wrong, then you're sort of.

In paralysis. Uh, again, the comms can't succeed. So I do think there's some education and cultural shifting around. Everybody should be out there publicly endorsing them as brand ambassadors and we should be giving them the tools and the support as opposed to the punishment if it goes wrong. 

[00:43:15] Parry: Amen. That agree?

Amen. So we should probably move on to our rapid fires, given the time, right. 

[00:43:22] Becca: Rapid fire. Let's go. Um, do you want me to do them, Perry? 

[00:43:27] Parry: Yeah, please. 

[00:43:28] Becca: All right, Roberto, are you ready for rapid fire? 

[00:43:30] Parry: I'm ready. 

[00:43:31] Becca: What is a myth or misconception about communications that drives you crazy? Ah, 

[00:43:38] Roberto: um, you said this earlier actually, but that, that ev that everyone is a communications expert.

[00:43:43] Becca: Of course. Amen. That, okay. You get to a race one corporate buzzword from existence. Which one? 

[00:43:52] Roberto: Thrilled. Thrilled to announce. Uh, are you really? 

[00:43:57] Becca: Oh my gosh. I think I have a post. Oh, no. I have something about being excited. I'm excited. Everyone's so excited all the time, but yes, I am with you. Thrilled, 

[00:44:05] Parry: excited, thrilled, honored, humbled.

You name it. 

[00:44:09] Becca: Okay. You're about to give a presentation in front of 50,000 people. What is your walkout song or walkup song? The song you walk to the stage too. 

[00:44:18] Roberto: You know? Cake. The band? 

[00:44:20] Becca: Yeah. 

[00:44:21] Roberto: Mm-hmm. The distance. 

[00:44:22] Becca: Yeah. He's going for distance. He's going for 

[00:44:26] Roberto: speed. Speed. Nice. There's just some things that I have always thought about that song, so there you go.

Yeah, that's, that's ball to share This. 

[00:44:37] Becca: A bunch of old ass people on this. I know exactly. Not to date ourselves. Okay. Um, if you had to do a TED talk on anything but communications, what would it be? 

[00:44:51] Roberto: Why travel makes better Leaders? 

[00:44:54] Becca: Oh, 

[00:44:55] Parry: Ooh. I like that a lot. That's a good one. It says a lot without saying much like in a very, in one small sentence, it says a lot.

Great topic. 

[00:45:03] Becca: Yeah. Speech volume. Love it. Okay. You get to use one emoji for the rest of your life. Which emoji do you use? 

[00:45:12] Roberto: Can I say two? Sure. Because they go together. Okay. Yeah. I love the microphone and the drop sign. 

[00:45:18] Becca: Yes. Or the, you do a micro drop. I know, 

[00:45:20] Roberto: I, I, I chuckle to myself every single time I put that down because I'm like, mic drop, but it's drop.

Um, anyway, that would be my shirt. 

[00:45:28] Becca: I love that. It makes you chuckle. Like just now. Every time I see one, I'm just gonna picture Roberto chuckling. Aren't I clever? 

[00:45:36] Roberto: This is what working remotely by yourself at home does to you, right? 

[00:45:40] Becca: It's the little things. Okay, Perry, please take it away. 

[00:45:45] Parry: Oh, the, the, the, the crowd pleaser question.

So, Roberto, I. Here's your choice. You can either have and endure round the clock, hiccups for three months straight, like I'm talking, no relief. Relentless. Can't get rid of them three months straight. Or you have to remove your pinky, uh, cut off your pinky. Are you going to suffer the hiccups for three months or you getting rid of a digit?

It's definitely the pinky. 

[00:46:13] Roberto: Yeah. If you babysit a different finger on my, but pinky is ancillary and it's a good story. Right? You know, like, how do we do Pinky? Our pinky too. Roberta Perry made me choose will be my answer. That's how I lost my pinky. Roberto, I had so much respect for you until that answer.

Are new hiccups. Is that yours? 

[00:46:35] Parry: I'm keeping, I don't wanna mutilate my hand. These things are amazing. Get rid of a, get rid of a pinky.

[00:46:43] Roberto: Two of your hiccups, call me without my pinky. 

[00:46:46] Parry: Your pinky is gone forever. The hiccups are gone in three months. Choose wisely. 

[00:46:52] Becca: You'll have lost your mind by month two Man worth it. 

[00:46:56] Parry: Don't, don't get me wrong, I wouldn't be comfortable. I would be very uncomfortable and very, very irate. But three months later, later, I'm sticking my pinky out.

While I'm sipping tea. Get one of those rings 

[00:47:08] Roberto: just to rub it in for me. You know the pinky ring. 

[00:47:11] Becca: Amazing. Alright. Well Roberto, before we leave, is there anything you wanna plug? Any final thoughts? Um, anything you wanna share with our audience? 

[00:47:21] Roberto: Yeah, I mean, I think just one, it was awesome to one, again, we haven't actually met in person air quotes.

Uh, so it's good to meet you all. Uh, I think, you know, it's just, um, I think it's really interesting where the comms. World's going and how consultants and how agencies and how sort of, uh, solo entrepreneurs are playing a really interesting role right now. And I, I just, I think maybe the plug or the, the, the thing to prompt to folks is I think that the comms career is changing and the opportunity to go to different places and to row your own canoe or to go in different paths is, is more open than it has been in a long time.

And I just think that. Folks that are thinking about maybe taking a leap or maybe sort of trying a different, uh, uh, avenue in their careers. I would just encourage folks to do it because I think now is a really interesting time to go for it. So that's, that's my sort of to the industry plug. Love 

[00:48:12] Parry: it. Amen.

Well said. Well said. 

[00:48:14] Becca: I love that. All right, well thank you for, uh, coming on today. We loved having, you 

[00:48:18] Parry: had a great time. Absolutely. Thank you. Thanks Pat. Thanks so much. Bye-Bye.