PR for PR: The Meta Magic (and Madness) of Comms at Muck Rack with Linda Zebian, VP of Comms at Muck Rack

In this episode of Under Embargo, we’re joined by Linda Zebian, newly-minted VP of Communications at Muck Rack, for a conversation that’s equal parts insightful and unhinged—in the best way possible.

Linda breaks down what it’s like to do PR for a PR tech company (spoiler: it’s very meta), how her time at The New York Times shaped her leadership, and why the work she’s doing now is the most meaningful of her career.

We cover:
— Building a comms function from scratch inside a fast-growth tech company
— Why measurement in PR is broken—and what MuckRack’s doing to fix it
— The real impact of AI on the industry (is sentiment the next frontier?)
— Why PR still gets left off the thank-you email—and how we fix that

Also not to be missed: whether you’d take $100M for a very specific and very weird demise.

Yes, really.

Whether you’re in-house, agency-side, or somewhere in between—this episode is for every comms pro who’s tried (and failed) to explain their job to their mom.

Transcript

[00:01:05] Parry: Hello everyone and thank you to episode. Five. We've made it five episodes now of the Under Embargo podcast. I am your co-host, Perry Hedrick. I am founder of Tech PR Agency, k Crackle pr. My co-host is Becca Chambers. Uh, she'll, she'll say hello in a, in a hot minute here. She's a CMO of Scale Ventures. Uh, and today we are super excited to have Linda Zein, which I just pronounced correctly.

[00:01:32] Parry: Um, who is the VP of Communications at MuckRack? Welcome, Linda. 

[00:01:38] Linda: Thanks for having me Pier. I'm Becca. I'm excited to be here. 

[00:01:41] Parry: That's great. So Linda has a pretty storied career in communication. So in addition to being, I think, the first director of comms at MuckRack, you also had a, about a decade at the New York Times in various different, um, communications positions, doing a whole bunch of stuff there, which I'll, I'll probably ask you to talk through in a, in a minute.

[00:01:59] Parry: And then [00:02:00] prior to that, you were a consumer report. So you're, you're no slouch on the, in the comms game. Um, and, and, and I'm wondering how MuckRack compares to the other two gigs. So maybe we can just kind of start there. 

[00:02:11] Linda: Yeah, actually, um, I, I didn't know what to expect, like moving from media into tech and, um, I've been so delightfully, uh, pleased and surprised by the Muck Rack gig.

[00:02:27] Linda: Um. And every day is, uh, like better than the next. I've actually don't think I've ever been happier at a job. I would say. Um, working for a place like the Times, obviously you've got a lot of like, kind of swagger, right? Yeah. And everybody knows what it is, right? Like no one knows what PR is, like at the, at Thanksgiving, right?

[00:02:47] Linda: You're Thanksgiving and everyone's like, so what do you do? Like even still, it's like, it's never, it's just never gonna, it's never gonna happen for us, right? Mom and dad are never gonna know, but, uh, like they're just never gonna get it. [00:03:00] Uh, but, but, uh, I would say, and it was like the honor of my career to work there, of course.

[00:03:06] Linda: Um, but I would say like, I've made like the most strides and I'm most proud, I think of the work I've done at MuckRack in terms of my personal growth and being able to make the most impact on the industry. And also to foster growth in people and individuals and, um, uh, and to make the most impact on an organization.

[00:03:29] Linda: I think, uh, I'm most proud of the work that I've done here, so. 

[00:03:33] Parry: Yeah, well you've got a, a kind of a tall order there, right? Like, so as the first director of comms, I'm imagining that you kind of had to assemble the whole program that you're now in charge of that's growing. 'cause MuckRack is, is in really healthy position, right?

[00:03:45] Parry: So that's Wait, 

[00:03:46] Becca: wait, wait. Teo, because MuckRack is a product for comms people. Can we talk about what MuckRack is before we like go, keep talking about That's a, that's a good to good. So like please tell [00:04:00] us what MuckRack is and then let's. Continue to talk about MuckRack. 

[00:04:03] Linda: Yeah. Okay. So MuckRack is basically PR software.

[00:04:09] Linda: Um, and so I, so this job is like super meta. It's like the super meta job. And, um, I do PR for PR tech platform. And, uh, so MuckRack is basically database, uh, just, uh, traditional and social media monitoring. Um. It's like a team collaboration tool. It's a pitching tool, it's a measurement and reporting tool.

[00:04:39] Linda: Um, and then like there's AI just kinda like threaded throughout. It started, um, and it's kind of the only one that like does this as a. Journalist database. So it started 15 years ago. The founders started, um, they kind of came out in like the Twitter age, so I remember when CCA were on the [00:05:00] 

[00:05:00] Becca: scene. It was a disaster.

[00:05:01] Becca: Yeah, yeah, 

[00:05:02] Linda: yeah. So they were like noticing that like. Journalists, um, couldn't find, there was a lot of journalists using Twitter back in the day and they couldn't find themselves like each other in like community on Twitter. So they started this database in like two, like less than two weeks. They built this database of journalists and like they were living in, they were in New York at the time and like PR people would like.

[00:05:25] Linda: Stop them and be like, yo, oh you do MuckRack? Like this is Greg Galland and Lisa, all the founders. But like, you know, Greg would be like, they, oh, you're the MuckRack guy. Like, oh, PR people would be like, oh, we use that to find journalists. 'cause it's super accurate. Because journalists were wanting to be on it.

[00:05:40] Linda: It was like a thing and opting in to get on MuckRack. Yeah. And so, um, and they were like. Wow. PR people are using this tool. 'cause it was like super accurate. And so they're like, what if we just layered on some like software onto that, some tools onto this database. So they did that [00:06:00] and like, kind of like the first iteration what, what Mogra came out and then they just kind of kept adding to it.

[00:06:05] Linda: And um, then they got some customers and they just kept adding to it and they bootstrapped this company. For basically like till 2022, which is when they brought me on. And then they got this giant series A in 2022 for 180 million, which was insane. And it was like eight months after I started. Anyway, um, it was, it's a wonderful story.

[00:06:26] Linda: I'm so proud. To just like work. I really wanted you, so 

[00:06:31] Becca: I wanted you to explain because the meta piece of that is super important and interesting. Yeah. And I've always said that if I was going to be a marketer marketing to comms people, man, I would crush it because like, yeah, we know ourselves. We're the only people who really know ourselves.

[00:06:44] Becca: So how fun for you that you get to Yeah. Speak to us. 

[00:06:49] Linda: Yeah. Well, like when I took the, when I, when I saw the job. Like I it to leave the times. It was gonna take a lot. I mean, a, I think the Times was a grueling job. It [00:07:00] was 2022. Um, the first Trump administration had left the building, but in that time it was very difficult to do comms at the New York Times when the sitting president is tweeting at you constantly and question, questioning the integrity of your brand.

[00:07:16] Linda: Part of the media failing New York Times newspaper. 

[00:07:20] Becca: Yeah, you were getting it on both sides. You weren't just getting it from the president, you're getting from everybody. You can't leave. Well, you're always 

[00:07:26] Linda: getting it. Yeah. When you work in a place like the New York Times, it's like, you're too right.

[00:07:29] Linda: You're too left. You don't cover this enough. You don't cover that enough. And like, and I gotta say like the New York Times, like, you know, having worked there for so long, you know how seriously they take. The reporting and you know how seriously they take independence. And so, and like, you know, he Trump before he took office in the first round, like he came to the building, like he was, he came up to the 15th floor and had a meeting with the publisher and all of those things.

[00:07:57] Linda: So it's like, you know, it was very complimentary, very kind. And [00:08:00] so he 

[00:08:00] knows. 

[00:08:01] Parry: Yeah. 

[00:08:01] Linda: Right. And so anyway, so like that was grueling. And then with the co, with Covid and all of that coverage and being in the grind of the news every day you're almost like, gosh, I do, I need a, I kind of need a break from this.

[00:08:14] Linda: And so when I started looking and I saw the Mud Rack job, I was like, that could be interesting. And that, and I was very, I proved, I, you know, they proved me very wrong. Like, I could do that, like, that could be kind of. A softball. Right? And I, and I, but I also thought it would be really interesting to build a team and build out a function.

[00:08:36] Linda: Like what does a PR team at a PR tech company look like? Um, and I've always also been very passionate. I dunno if you see me on LinkedIn about just like raising the profile of PR people. Obviously you all are, have this podcast and very vocal on LinkedIn as well in this same vein. We all are all into this.

[00:08:56] Linda: Good fight together, right? We all believe the same things. [00:09:00] So I was like, this is really cool, and I could like kind of put my voice and what I, what I call is get the name back, get the name onto the, the thank you email, like I've had so many people. Say like, you know, come crying to me. People on my team, like they thanked marketing, they thanked products.

[00:09:15] Linda: Yeah. They think tech and they, and they're sharing the Wall Street Journal article that Yeah. Who do they think 

[00:09:21] Becca: got 

[00:09:21] Linda: that, who they think secured that article? Yeah. And like they forgot me and I'm like, it's okay. Like they don't get it. They think it just magically appears like, yeah, it just magically happens.

[00:09:31] Linda: Okay. It's actually not okay, but I'm telling you it's okay.

[00:09:37] Linda: But you know, I was, I was, I was wrong. You know, clearly it wasn't like such an easy job. Like working in tech was just an eyeopener for me. Like how dumb was I thinking it was gonna be easy to work at like a very fast growing, profitable kind of disruptor in the industry to be an in-house PR person coming here.

[00:09:56] Linda: And it's just been such a pleasure and I've actually got gotten a chance to [00:10:00] influence the product, which has been the coolest part to see my idea. 

[00:10:06] Parry: What, what, what was the idea? 

[00:10:08] Linda: Uh, last year we, um, launched a PR hit score tool, um, which basically is almost like a personalized number value you could put on an individual piece of an individual hit.

[00:10:22] Linda: So like, nice, you know, your, your small trade piece could mean nothing to one company. Yeah. But it could mean everything and be the biggest hit of the quarter to another company so you can individualize. Um, hits based on, uh, also like the value of the journalist, the value of the outlet, the location of the mention.

[00:10:41] Linda: Is it in the headline? Is it in, you know, a pa Like we all, like, we've done surveys on this, like number of hits is the number one, um, measure of, of value in PR outside, like you've got impressions and then you've got like number of pieces of [00:11:00] coverage. That's, that's your, that's your KPI for the quarter. So, so a sh a shitty, sorry, can I say shitty?

[00:11:07] Linda: Yes. So a, so a shitty only once. Yeah. Okay. So I just, you're done. Okay. So, so a, so a negative mention. Okay. If we're not, if we're just saying number of mentions as your number one, KPI, uh, negative mention has therefore the same value as a front page story. 

[00:11:26] Parry: Yeah. Yes. If we're talking, 

[00:11:27] Linda: uh, a mention among three other competitors has the same value as a profile.

[00:11:33] Parry: Yeah. I always look at, I look at it this way, it's like, it, it reminds me of going to a, a restaurant and people are like, the restaurant was great, was great. Why was it great? Well, they had huge portions to, to me that is so irrelevant. I want the quality of the meal maybe, or the 

[00:11:48] Becca: steak was amazing. Well, I'm a vegetarian.

[00:11:50] Becca: I cool. I hate that that restaurant sucks. But I also think you're the, that is a perfect example [00:12:00] of. For this campaign, getting in the trades is better than getting in Forbes, right? So like. Each campaign can have its own set of metrics and goals, and we should be tracking those, not to your point, these kind of like big whatever metrics that don't tell you anything about what you're actually doing right now to achieve your goals.

[00:12:22] Becca: So I love that. 

[00:12:24] Linda: Yeah, I just think like for too long we've just like been playing in like these gigantic pools of generic nonsense and PR is just so specific and nuanced in every single team and agency, et cetera. Just needs. Specialized metrics and tools and, and everything is, and that's why it takes so long, and that's why it's expensive and that's why, you know.

[00:12:50] Linda: It's just like, why, like all the things. And so, um, and I think that like, it takes, it takes time to build technology for this. [00:13:00] And, um, we're trying, you know, we're trying, 

[00:13:03] Parry: I, so I have to say full disclosure to the listeners here, I am a customer of MuckRack and happily, so it's been, I think three years now since we switched from.

[00:13:12] Parry: Another tool that shall remain, uh, nameless. But, uh, in, in that time, I can tell you that our team has just been like super pumped about the ability to tailor and customize, to your point, what the metrics are and why they're important. We have go back and forth with, with your team all the time about how to customize certain data sets and, and different search terms and all of that kind of stuff.

[00:13:34] Parry: So. I just think from a usability and efficacy standpoint, what you guys are doing is really cool. You guys are expensive as hell, by the way. I mean, you, you just are, but I always say, I always say, no, you pick one. Good. PR is expensive because it's hard as fuck to do. Yeah. So the, the reason why it costs a lot of money is because it's damn good.

[00:13:53] Parry: So, you know, kudos to to, to that. And I don't, I can't anticipate another competitor at this point coming on strong and [00:14:00] unseating what you guys have done, it's gonna have to be through acquisition, I think, because I don't know how you do that out of the gate. 

[00:14:06] Becca: Can I ask something? Why is PR so hard to measure and what should people be measuring now since we shouldn't be just measuring chair voice?

[00:14:16] Becca: 'cause that's ridiculous. 

[00:14:18] Linda: Yeah. I think, uh. PR is hard to measure because like you're essentially measuring brand perception and impact, and it's hard to measure that against, you know, sales and revenue. Um, and so I think, you know how, how, at least I picture it, not at least how we're trying to think about it, is it's not just one.

[00:14:50] Linda: You can't just do it with one number or it's a, it's a collection, like it's a dashboard. It's a, it's a story. And so I always try to like to tell folks [00:15:00] like, you're so damn good at telling a story. Like your pitches, your pitches are solid and you really have to. Like continue that long thread of telling the outcome and your impact and your value when you're talking about reporting and measurement.

[00:15:15] Linda: And so that continue your storytelling through on a campaign, right? By using, um, and it's not just about numbers, it's about your analysis and like the long tail of, of your impact. And so. Um, for us, you know, and I think sentiment is a huge one for sure, but it's not there, you know, that's so and so what we're doing is like really interesting, and I think this is where AI really comes in too.

[00:15:44] Linda: And we have like the best AI team, like speaking to like Perry, what you're, what you were saying before about like us just being awesome. We are awesome. And the reason that we're awesome is because we're doing, we a, we have PR people working here. Like why wouldn't you hire PR people [00:16:00] if you are a tech, totally tech platform?

[00:16:03] Linda: Like who do you have? Anyway, so we have like these data, these like AI data, people that are like just mind blowing. Like I can talk to them and I'm like, Hmm, I got like 3% of what you just said. They know what they're doing and so what they're doing is they're, and I don't wanna give away like so much, but like I'm talking like.

[00:16:24] Linda: Back to the sentiment thing. Sorry, I'm like all over the place 'cause I'm just super 

[00:16:27] Parry: hyped. Okay. 

[00:16:28] Linda: So it's like enriching, so enriching the data, so the powers in the data, right? Like, and we tell us to our customers all the time. So it's like, and it's so enriching the data in our database, right? So all the, all of the, you know, journalists and the outlets and the podcasts and the newsletters and blah blah.

[00:16:49] Linda: But then like, and also the, the monitoring as well. So it's like. To understand that sentiment, you have to like not just understand. Um, [00:17:00] like for example, like Apple as a company, but Apple is also a food. So the reason that sentiment is like not right or accurate is like you have to take all of the data of the universe, of the internet.

[00:17:15] Linda: And enrich it. And then also like take another layer of it out to understand the digital context. Yeah. Yes. The context. And so that's what these data engineers are so dang good at. And that's what, 

[00:17:28] yeah, 

[00:17:29] Linda: we're just like a couple of guys, like, yeah. And ladies and ladies and then, but like with ai, you can do that.

[00:17:36] Linda: And so like that's what they're doing now and like. I feel like sentiment is the next big thing, and I feel like once we crack that code, then we'll have another layer of measurement and being able to prove the value of, Hey, we just saved your ass. Like, maybe we didn't get into a crisis, but like, Hey, let's measure like what could have happened, but we saved your ass, so pay us more.[00:18:00] 

[00:18:00] Becca: If it's real time sentiment. 'cause right now we measured sentiment and it's very like three months ago sentiment, right? Because we're doing surveys and like stuff that takes forever to measure, or we're just like doing a snapshot of social media or whatever and it's not accurate. Or like you said, it's including random keywords that don't have anything to do with your actual, um, com.

[00:18:19] Becca: You know, I work for scale, like how many things are showing up with scale in it. Um, and so you can put an apple 

[00:18:25] Parry: on a scale, for example, you know, 

[00:18:28] Becca: so to your point I do, I totally agree and I think it's gonna be really exciting for me as like a brand person and somebody who is always very frustrated by the lack of ability to really measure brand sentiment and like changing brand sentiment day by day.

[00:18:42] Becca: I think that is a really exciting. You know? Yeah. Change in how AI is gonna impact our industry and measurement because there's black box right now, 

[00:18:50] Parry: there's an intelligence piece too. I mean, a lot of this stuff, you know, not to talk smack about analyst groups like the McKinseys of the world, but you know, those guys are coming to the table with reports [00:19:00] that, to your point, Becca, are already pretty stale by the time you pay a million dollars for it.

[00:19:04] Parry: Um, and this kind of, you know, instant always on fluid, um, finger on the pulse of the sentiment informs business leaders about how to make changes in real time, you know, based on what they're seeing on the ground today, not three months ago. I think that is really ultimately where the, my watch is talking to me.

[00:19:22] Parry: Um, that's really the power of, of, of AI as it relates to these types of tools, I think is the real time piece of it that is just so lacking, um, in some of the yeah. Aided legacy stuff. 

[00:19:32] Linda: Yeah, and you know, we we're working with this, um, we just acquired, um. This company. Sorry to look out the, I'm gonna keep looking out the window.

[00:19:39] Linda: 'cause like, I don't know. There's somebody out there that's like giving me thoughts. Um, 

[00:19:42] Parry: your dog by the way, has been trying to get out, so I'm just letting you know. 

[00:19:46] Linda: Oh no, I see him. He's, uh, I think, um, somebody may have delivered a package and he's just like, he thinks he's way bigger than he is. He's, he's a little pop still.

[00:19:56] Linda: Um. We acquired this, um, Dublin base, but [00:20:00] they have a lot of folks over in Bulgaria, they're media intelligence company, um, in January. Uh, Ru Point is the company and we're inteMuck Racking their services. So they're like, they have like a lot of proprietary AI features for, uh, media intelligence, but they also have like a hundred editors and, and analysts, and I don't know if you know this, but like Bulgarians are like really good at this.

[00:20:21] Linda: Kind of stuff. I didn't know this about Bo Arian, but apparently, like they all, um, speak like five or six languages, had no idea. Um, smart, really, really smart people. I had no idea. Look at all, I did not know that. I did not know that either. Um, but anyway, like. And I've seen some of their reports and we're actually getting set up on their platform.

[00:20:42] Linda: We're gonna like drink our own, what do you call that? Drink your own champagne kind of thing. Um, so my team is getting set up on, um, the, the first, you know, customer Zero on the platform. And their services are really interesting because again. The delay in that it's already stale. Right. But what [00:21:00] they, you know, they're sending, you can get their reports like throughout the day.

[00:21:03] Linda: These, I mean, it's, again, it's expensive to have managed services. I get it. But, but who needs the, who needs this kind of stuff? It's not, you know, small, these small, like little independent, the enterprise baby. You're talking about enterprise complex, you know, complex businesses that are global brands. You want, you need it in a language, you need it in a region.

[00:21:21] Linda: Your brand is totally different and you know. That stuff is really cool. Like the media intelligence stuff and, and uh, what they can do and the analysis that they provide. Again, with ai, this is the kind of stuff I love AI for Chacha, bt, and like the, give me, you know, five ways to say this in a gentle way.

[00:21:40] Linda: Sure. Great. Love it. Use it all day. But I don't wanna talk about that anymore. I wanna talk about the analysis and you know, like. That's the kind of stuff that I wanna talk about with ai. Yeah. And uh, also how to use those things to accelerate my, uh, you know, my career. You know, I'm not [00:22:00] going anywhere, but, you know, like that, that's how we could elevate this profession is to do what marketing did, you know, X amount of years ago.

[00:22:08] Linda: And, and push. I think the C is getting pushed, um, way more than it ever has, but I'd love to see it, um, accelerate at a faster, at faster. 

[00:22:18] Parry: So this is an interesting potential segue. So one of the things that I think you and I talked on LinkedIn briefly about was, uh, report that you guys were involved with talking about journalists and mental health and the surprising data that came out of that.

[00:22:31] Parry: And, and, um. We were just talking about ai. So the transition really is, you know, AI is eating a lot of people's lunch, some of which is the reporter or the journalist. Um, going up against these, you know, automated systems now, basically. So I'm just wondering what you're seeing from your seat, as you know, right in the middle of the zeitgeist of both the PR world, the journalists, because they're in your database.

[00:22:54] Parry: Like what are you seeing happening with journalism, um, vis-a-vis AI and just [00:23:00] shrinking newsrooms and ad dollars drying up? Like what's the 

[00:23:03] Linda: Yeah, 

[00:23:04] Parry: what's the, what's the view from your seat? 

[00:23:06] Linda: Yeah. Um. So we have a, a state of journal. So we have like a number of reports that come out every year. Like we have a state of AI and pr, we have a state of journalism.

[00:23:15] Linda: The surveys out in the, in the field right now. Um, obviously local news is, continues to be super duper challenged. Um. We just, we just, we just came out with a state of a, uh, state of work-life balance in journalism, which is this, I think the scariest one for me because like, um, almost half or over half of journalists have con, have, uh, left a job or are, have considered leaving a job or leaving journalism.

[00:23:44] Linda: I gotta get the right date, the right data, love, uh, consider leaving journalism in the next year. 

[00:23:49] Parry: Yeah. 

[00:23:49] Linda: Wow. Wild. 

[00:23:51] Parry: That was the factoid that really caught my eyes. Like what? 

[00:23:54] Linda: Mind blowing. 

[00:23:55] Parry: Yeah. How 

[00:23:55] surprised 

[00:23:57] Parry: I have, I have journalists DMing me all the time [00:24:00] looking to join with my PR agency. I mean, all the time.

[00:24:03] Parry: Same. And, and so I'm seeing it in real time, but, uh, you know, that's just anecdotal, like people coming to me. But it, it seems that, that people who are in that profession, for the most part, unless you're really highly paid at a great organization, are looking for the exit signs. 

[00:24:16] Linda: Yeah. And they're not highly paid.

[00:24:18] Linda: I think it's 70 K is the average, and I think it's like, and then you look at the tenure. And it doesn't, it just literally, the line is like 70 K. 70 K 70, yeah. Is like 25 years plus in journalism. 70 k. 

[00:24:30] Parry: Well, and then you look, you look at the fact that there, I think the last thing I saw with, there's seven to one PR people, two reporters in this world, seven to one.

[00:24:37] Parry: So they're getting hammered with pitches from literally everywhere. Every one of these PR people is making more than that. 70 k. Pretty much. I mean, you know, at 70 K, a 20 K, 50 k. 

[00:24:48] Linda: Yeah. 

[00:24:48] Parry: Peppering these reporters who are working their butts off for 

[00:24:51] Linda: Yes. 

[00:24:52] Parry: Small dollars, man. It's, it's something has gotta give, right?

[00:24:56] Linda: Yeah. Uh, and I don't know what that something is, [00:25:00] uh, 

[00:25:00] Parry: ai, isn't it? Because AI is gonna exacerbate the problem, not improve it. 

[00:25:05] Linda: Exactly. And well, I mean, I think, you know, I think the problem is, is like these smaller. I, I think, I think for like a while there was like too many outlets. It's like, oh, the boxes and the vices and the buzz feeds.

[00:25:20] Linda: And it was like, oh my gosh, there's so much competition now. And it's like, where do you go for eyeballs? And nobody wants to pay for news anymore. No one's going down to the newsstand. No one's subscribing to magazines. And magazines we're getting eaten. We're we're getting eaten up. And the, and the, you know, the fangs and the advertising dollars and the advertising dollars never came back.

[00:25:37] Linda: They're never coming back. Right. So you, so like, and that was my job at the Times was basically on the business side is to like draw attention to why people should pay for news, why people should subscribe to and, and pay for and support independent news. Um, and so, and I think like no one's really worrying about the New York Times and subscriptions and the New York Times not being here in 10 years.

[00:25:58] Linda: Right. Or the Wall Street Journal not being [00:26:00] here in 10 years, or a, b, c, nightly news or whatever. Like, okay. But it's like diversity of points of view and diversity of voices and like what about that? You know what I mean? And, and independent newsrooms, it's gonna be like. Uh, crazy lefts and crazy rights and like, what about everybody else?

[00:26:19] Linda: Um, and who's supporting like alternative newsrooms or alternative weeklies and local newsrooms, and who's covering like local governments and who's keeping the powers that be in check and who's supporting, you know, um, you know, independent sort of non-partisan news, um, or government funded news? 

[00:26:39] Parry: I'm seeing a lot of movement on, on Substack in similar platforms, like Exactly.

[00:26:43] Parry: People are taking it upon themselves to build their own platforms. Independent. Yeah, and, and they're monetizing themselves, I mean, they're betting on themselves, monetizing themselves, and getting advertisers. For themselves, but they tend to be the people who are already trusted reporters and trusted journalists and have that halo effect [00:27:00] before they did.

[00:27:00] Parry: And I guess that's really the key to be successful, is having that recognition before you decide to hang your own Substack shingle. 

[00:27:06] Linda: Sure. And I think all that's fine. And well, I guess for PR people, like that's fine and well. And I guess for a, a model, but I think like if you kind of zoom out, and this is kind of what I care about, it may not be like a PR topic.

[00:27:19] Linda: It may be more of like a demo. Democratic topic is like, okay, people will pay for news that interests them and topics that interest them. But like I. They're still only hearing and watching and listening and reading to things that share their same opinion. So I will pay for this because I believe in it, and that's what I wanna hear.

[00:27:37] Linda: And so, are we all just gonna be like, just going deeper into the ecosystem of things and, and tailored ideas that we only want to hear? Like 

[00:27:46] Parry: Yeah. 

[00:27:46] Linda: How do we get out of that ecosystem of, you know, being in the feed of similar values and thoughts and. Not really sharing and diversity of thought and only [00:28:00] watching cable news that we wanna hear.

[00:28:01] Linda: And you know, I think at the times they grappled with that. You know, I 

[00:28:05] Becca: almost think we're gonna see like what happened with cable tv, which is, it went from everybody watching the like six channels and getting sick of it to it fragmenting into a bajillion different digital streaming services to now being like, there are too many digital streaming services.

[00:28:23] Becca: And now they're starting to like regroup. Or like, at least you can buy a digital streaming. You know, you can buy Disney, but you also get blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like maybe that's. How it's gonna become. Because to your point, I'm not gonna pay for 19 substack subscriptions just to get my news. Like at some point I'm gonna need to just get news and um yeah.

[00:28:47] Becca: I don't know. Yeah, 

[00:28:47] Parry: it's, it's kind of funny, like, just to, to go a little bit deeper into the, like, you know, the hard right, the hard left people reaffirming their own beliefs in these things. Like the algorithms have essentially, you know, trained people to do that, right? [00:29:00] So whether it's TikTok, whether it's Instagram, whether it's Facebook, if you start liking and engaging with certain content and the algorithm rhythm feeds you more of that content, so you never can leave the echo chamber essentially.

[00:29:09] Parry: And so people have hungered for that across their entire lives, and so that's why they gravitate toward the, the Fox News on the extreme right, the MSNBCs and the extreme left, and then CNNA couple of people like NPRs twisting in the, in the middle, trying to play it, you know, balls and strikes. But I think what, what ultimately has to happen, Linda and Becca, is that there's gotta be some big pocketed.

[00:29:31] Parry: Billionaires like the Mark Cubans of the world, like the Reed Hoffmans of the world, uh, people who are very, very wealthy and also very, very outspoken to get together and create a new model at the highest level to bring. I love that 

[00:29:44] Becca: we're in the billionaires will save us. The only, the billionaires save us.

[00:29:48] Becca: Now there gonna tell us we're 

[00:29:50] Parry: gonna save us one of the two. 

[00:29:51] Becca: They, I mean, the billionaires are gonna kill us, so only the billionaires can save us. Like that's where we are. We are all the minions just sitting around like billionaires. [00:30:00] Oh my God. How did we get to this place? Billionaires, please help us.

[00:30:07] Becca: Give us a little bit of help. Oh my God. Yikes. But you're right. I mean, you're right. I think about this all the time. Mark Cuban is a sane, rational voice, and I don't think I would've said 15 years ago that Mark Cuban is gonna be the savior of the left, because I don't necessarily think he is. I just think he is sane and rational right now in a moment when there is not a lot of.

[00:30:28] Becca: Sanity being spewed. And I do wish that somebody like him, like what he's doing with prescription drugs, can he just do that with all things where he's just taking the practical human-centric approach, which is I'm gonna make this affordable because it's the right thing to do and it doesn't. I'm not taking a financial hit on it, I'm still making a profit, and it's good for humanity.

[00:30:52] Becca: Win, win, win. Oh my God. Imagine that. 

[00:30:54] Parry: Mm-hmm. Imagine that indeed. Well, it's a, it's a complicated world we live in, and anytime you're talking about the [00:31:00] media landscape now you, you necessarily have to confront the forces that are trying to manipulate things. I mean, look at the Washington Post. Look at Jeff Bezos basically, you know, rolling over and, and, and doing the bidding of people that he would not normally be in bed with, right.

[00:31:15] Parry: I mean. Uh, the Los Angeles Times. I mean, there's all kinds of publications that are supplicants to, to, you know, forces that they normally wouldn't even dream of getting in bed with. And that's, that's the unfortunate reality of where we are. 

[00:31:28] Becca: Well, and I would, a few years ago, us having a PR podcast wouldn't have meant that every single episode led to a political discussion, but it is.

[00:31:41] Becca: They are unthinkable at this point because the media and politics are so like intertwined in a way, and tech, right? Like all of it is just now like so intertwined in such a way that it, like you can't have a conversation about one without the other things coming into it. And I think it's fascinating.

[00:31:58] Becca: Every single day I go to work, you [00:32:00] know, there are conversations about politics coming in and people are always like, oh, you shouldn't talk about politics on LinkedIn. And it's like the, it's. Everywhere all the time. It permeates all the things. So fascinating. 

[00:32:11] Parry: Yeah. In Indeed. And I know, Linda, you probably don't want to go deep into the poli politics rat hole, so, so we can, we can pivot away from that a little bit.

[00:32:18] Becca: Let's do that. Let's do that. I'm, I have a question that is a totally different pivot and I see on your LinkedIn that you are a guest lecturer at a number of places. And I'm curious what you guest lecture about? 

[00:32:29] Linda: Oh, um. Well, I loved guests. I love guest lecturing. I love talking to students, and I probably do it too much and I don't have time, but that's 

[00:32:37] Becca: something I would love to do that I've never done an Oh, we should do that.

[00:32:41] Linda: I should connect you. I, yeah, I should, I should connect you with some folks. Um, gosh, everything, career development, I'll pitching. I share a lot of, um. Cracks research because that's a great topic that they like, are super interested in, like, we used to do a salary report that they love to like, oh my gosh, how much am I gonna make?

[00:32:58] Linda: You know, how much should I expect to make [00:33:00] outta college? Um, you know, crisis comms, media training, I mean, all of the, all the stuff. Yeah. Love it, love it. Love to talk to students. You know, some of them are like so engaged and then some of 'em are like, hoodie. 

[00:33:13] Yeah. Mm-hmm. 

[00:33:14] Linda: And then I'm like.

[00:33:18] Wake up. 

[00:33:19] Linda: Wake up. Do you know what this opportunity is? Come on. 

[00:33:23] Becca: Seriously, 

[00:33:24] Linda: I've done, that's the mom in 

[00:33:25] Becca: me. 

[00:33:26] Linda: It's 

[00:33:26] Becca: fine. I've done the thing where like, um, what is it where basically like a cohort of kids in a PR class. Like did a project for me and my team, so like I worked with them and like, and then they presented it to me and it was like, so awesome.

[00:33:44] Becca: And um, you know, I got a lot out of it. They got a lot about a lot out of it. And some of them were just like the most, you could tell who were the like real doers on the team and who were just like. Yeah, 

[00:33:54] pulling 

[00:33:54] Becca: up the, pulling up the rear and some of them I was like, I would hire those kids in in it, [00:34:00] you know?

[00:34:00] Becca: I know. So anyway, I would just like love to do more of that where it's not quite as intensive as having like a full semester long project. But yes, 

[00:34:09] Linda: I'll connect you. I'll connect you with some, some friends of mine. I also do the judging for the PRSA. Apple Apple. Love 

[00:34:15] it. 

[00:34:16] Linda: I love that. I love to see the creative, love it.

[00:34:18] Linda: The very creativity from the agencies. I'm like, y'all. Go get 'em because I haven't worked agency in so long. I just love that vibe. I love the vibes. I love it. So good. 

[00:34:27] Becca: I do think that there is something to. When you're around the people who have the, like the hunger and the excitement for their job, you know, and you're just around like the people who just like wanna get it and like they've got the ideas and they have the desire to just like, I don't know how to do this, but I'm just gonna go figure it out.

[00:34:47] Becca: Like that is the best. And I feel like when you're fearless around those people, it like fires you up to get everything going. Um. Yeah, yeah. 

[00:34:56] Parry: I've done a bunch of those, those le those lecture type [00:35:00] things to, to comms classes and stuff, and I like it too. The one, the one, um, thing that I would say, like I, they always ask for, like, what advice would you give, you know, students like us going out into the real world and, and honestly, the, the advice I'm giving now is less to do with.

[00:35:14] Parry: Communications less to do with like, make sure you read a lot, make sure you know, it's more like make sure you're the smartest person in your new organization about AI and how it affects your job, no matter what that job is gonna be. Because if you can walk into a room and, and give people relief that you are the one that know, knows what the hell you are talking about, about ai, you're gonna have a steady career and, and that's truly the best advice I could think of right now given the backdrop of where we're at.

[00:35:38] Parry: I tell my kids all the time, like in your spare time. Use AI and build things, tweak things like just get super freak us out about what kind of things you can do with a ai and that's gonna be the best training ground for you as you sort of, you know, venture out into the workforce 

[00:35:53] Becca: tot and like just test new tools all the time.

[00:35:56] Becca: Like I have a note that's called AI to try and [00:36:00] anytime I see somebody doing something cool, I just like add the AI name to my list and then when I have 20 minutes I just go dabble with it. And now I'm sure I'm paying like a thousand. Once upon a time were free subscriptions that I forgot to cancel that are like rolling over at $20 a.

[00:36:18] Becca: But I've tried like a million AI and some of them are amazing. And if I had more time, I'm sure I could do a thousand things in my life, but like I know how to video edit now thanks to AI tools that I wouldn't have been able to do a year ago. And to Perry's point, imagine what you, your kids can learn how to do now.

[00:36:34] Becca: You know, see, this 

[00:36:35] Parry: isn't even me. I'm actually just an avatar. You guys don't even know that. That's what I built. He's sleeping. 

[00:36:41] Becca: Jealous. Jealous. 

[00:36:43] Parry: So we have about 10 minutes left. I mean, I think we might have to turn over into rapid fire land. 

[00:36:49] Becca: Rapid fire always turns into like more than rapid fire because we end up like segueing ourselves, but all right.

[00:36:57] Becca: I've got the rapid fire question, so, 

[00:36:59] Linda: [00:37:00] okay. Do I have to also answer like you asked the rapid fire and I answer rapid fire? That's correct. I asked you answer. 

[00:37:08] Parry: I mean, you don't have to be extremely quick with your answer, but the idea is that these are little, little quick, quick and dirty, uh, q and As 

[00:37:14] Becca: and we ask everybody, so you know.

[00:37:17] Becca: Got it. Get a perspective. I'm gonna let Perry ask the last one 'cause it's Perry's question, but I'll ask the, it's a good question. The same questions. Okay. What is a myth or misconception about communication?

[00:37:31] Becca: Did you.

[00:37:36] Parry: I dunno, like a motorcycle. Did you hear something? Oh, 

[00:37:39] Becca: that's the leaf floor. Sorry. He walked away. Oh, okay. I just wanna make sure I wasn't crazy that I was like hearing. Nope. Sorry. Usually we can't hear that kind stuff on. Yeah, go. Sorry. What's a myth or misconception about communications that drives you crazy?[00:38:00] 

[00:38:01] Linda: That were not.

[00:38:05] Linda: Same. I'm not analytical, but other folks are that work in comps, 

[00:38:11] Becca: but like you're analytical enough to know that like one size doesn't fit all to report something, right? Yeah. Like, 

[00:38:19] Linda: yeah, actually my boss came and she's a CMO and she and I met her on the first day and I was like, I was like, um. I've never worked in marketing before, but like, you know, or I'm not a marketer.

[00:38:31] Linda: I said to her and she like, lost her dang mind on me. She's like, what do you mean you're not a marketer? Not really like that, but, um, she was really, she's like, you are a marketer. She's, she's the literally the greatest human ever. Okay. 

[00:38:44] Becca: Go. I'm with that. Yeah. Yeah. I yell at you too. Yeah. Okay. You get to erase one corporate buzzword from existence.

[00:38:52] Becca: Which one are you erasing? Frothy.[00:39:00] 

[00:39:00] Use it in a sentence, please. Gosh, the markets are frothy.

[00:39:09] I second that. I hate that. Don't ever say that again. 

[00:39:13] Parry: I have a feeling our production team is gonna pull that out and use that as a little teaser. 

[00:39:19] Froy. The markets are froy. It's the worst. 

[00:39:26] Becca: Okay, I just asked this one on LinkedIn the other day. You are about to give a presentation in front of 50,000 people at an arena.

[00:39:35] Becca: You're gonna walk out on stage. What is your walkout song? 

[00:39:40] Linda: Oh, I just walked out to this, um, at our all hands when we were all together at an a big retreat, company retreat in February, calm Down by Selena Gomez. 

[00:39:54] Becca: All right. There you go. Because everybody 

[00:39:56] Linda: needs to calm the hell down. 

[00:39:58] Everybody needs to calm 

[00:39:58] Linda: the hell down.

[00:39:59] Linda: Yeah. Well, [00:40:00] you are not wrong. It's not that serious. It's not that serious. Yeah. 

[00:40:04] All right. 

[00:40:06] Becca: Love these questions. 

[00:40:07] Parry: Is it me or is there still more? 

[00:40:09] Becca: There's more. There's two more before you, Perry. Okay. Okay. I'll 

[00:40:13] Parry: be patient. If 

[00:40:14] Becca: you had to do a TED talk on anything but communications, what would your topic be?

[00:40:24] Becca: Um,

[00:40:29] Linda: probably, um, spirituality, faith, empathy, and humanity. I. Wow. 

[00:40:39] Parry: I would very light topics. 

[00:40:41] Becca: I would sit through that though. That sounds fascinating. Let me know when you're giving that talk. I'm here for it. Okay. Um, and yeah, like a little light afternoon, uh, spirituality. It's all good. It's all love. It's all love.

[00:40:58] Becca: We need a little bit of humanity [00:41:00] in our lives. Yeah. Um, okay. My last question for you is you get to choose, you get to use one emoji for the rest of your life. Which one? Only one. 

[00:41:12] Oh goodness.

[00:41:20] Linda: The one I use the most is the heart. But the one I like the most. Is the melting face. 

[00:41:31] Becca: I was just gonna say melty face. Melting face is my favorite. It's like the new eye roll. It has Just so it uses, it has, it conveys so much, right? 

[00:41:40] Parry: It's deflated. Deflated, 

[00:41:42] Becca: yes. I love a melty face. I'm with you. Excellent choice.

[00:41:46] Becca: All right, Perry, last question. Uh, yeah. 

[00:41:49] Parry: So here comes the best question of all. This is super exciting. Super exciting. Yeah. You have a choice. You can either have hiccups [00:42:00] around the clock, hiccups for three months, three months straight, no re, no relief, no break, even when you're sleeping, when you're eating three months, or you can not have hiccups, but you have to chop off your pinky.

[00:42:13] Parry: What do you choose? Oh, 

[00:42:14] Linda: totally. Like chop off the pinky forever. 

[00:42:18] Parry: Yeah.

[00:42:23] Parry: Hiccups nonstop. 

[00:42:25] Linda: No, I think I go with the hiccups. Yeah, you keep 

[00:42:28] Parry: the hiccups. 

[00:42:29] Linda: Yeah, I would. 

[00:42:31] Parry: Yeah. 'cause 

[00:42:32] Linda: you really need your pinky to do, to have balance and do like handstands and stuff. So, and I do yoga. So 

[00:42:39] Becca: the spirituality comes, comes into play with, yeah, you really need a pinky for that. You can't 

[00:42:45] Linda: do hiccups with you with yoga though.

[00:42:48] Linda: Yeah, but I could give up the yoga for three months. Yeah. 

[00:42:51] Becca: I think it's a personal challenge to balance without a pinky that sounds more like, 

[00:42:56] Parry: I have never heard the answer that you need your pinky to do handstands. That, [00:43:00] that is pretty amazing. 

[00:43:02] Linda: Well, yeah, and like you probably need it to like hold a racket and like.

[00:43:07] Linda: That would be like, plus it's like temporary versus permanent. 

[00:43:11] Parry: Yeah. Oh, I'm So with you, Linda, you would be shocked at how many people would choose to lop off their pinky, including Becca. She's really, I mean, 

[00:43:19] Linda: I considered it. I considered it, but then like practicality of it. And also like you could probably like maybe take a med to like, no, you cannot, 

[00:43:30] Parry: there's no escaping.

[00:43:31] Parry: You can't cope. 

[00:43:31] Becca: You can't cope with the hiccups by like. Dude, you cannot taking some, like really, there's nothing to do. Sedative, no s an angry diaphragm. I say this on every show, so the people who watch all of our shows are probably like, dear God, Becca, with the hiccup rants all, 

[00:43:48] Parry: here's a, here's a, here's a bonus question.

[00:43:49] Parry: Bonus question. Ready. You can have a hundred million dollars right now given to you, but you will die by being eaten by a shark at the age of 95. [00:44:00] What do you for 

[00:44:02] Becca: for sure get eaten by a shark At 95 

[00:44:05] Parry: you would get eaten by a shark at 95, no 

[00:44:09] Becca: hundred percent. Getting eaten by a shark is not the worst way to die.

[00:44:13] Becca: There are way worse ways to die getting eaten by a shark. Yeah, there are worse ways to die. How is that? How is that worse? What could be worse getting hit by a car? What might be worse? 

[00:44:25] Parry: No way. That's instant. Getting eaten by a shark is like tragic and slow and drowning. Not necessarily 

[00:44:31] Becca: get just bit right in half.

[00:44:33] Becca: You die pretty quick. I could think of 

[00:44:34] Linda: worse ways to die than. 

[00:44:36] Becca: Yeah. And, uh, getting eaten by shark in 95, you know that you're gonna live a nice long life. 

[00:44:41] Parry: Well, that is the, the one perk is that, you know, you lived in 95, fallen 

[00:44:44] Becca: with a hundred mil Perry, lower the age. 

[00:44:48] Parry: All right? Yeah. We're going with 88. 

[00:44:52] Linda: I think I'd still go 

[00:44:53] Parry: for it.

[00:44:54] Parry: See, 

[00:44:54] Linda: I wouldn't do it. I wouldn't do it at, I wouldn't do it. Nah. 

[00:44:58] Parry: I would not be able a single [00:45:00] relaxing moment for the rest of my life knowing that at some point I'm going to be eaten by a shark like that. That would be my all consuming thought. Everywhere I went, everything I did, I'd be mid-conversation at a party being like, oh my God, I'm gonna get eaten by a shark at some point.

[00:45:13] Parry: Do 

[00:45:14] Becca: you. Two, not live with an anxiety disorder because I live every day worried I'm gonna die every single day. So knowing I'm gonna live until 88 would be a fucking godsend. Come on now. I don't even need the hundred million. Just knowing I'm gonna live to be 88. 

[00:45:31] Parry: It's like a 

[00:45:32] for you. I really love that. Uh, I'm not, I don't, nah.

[00:45:38] I'm still no way. I mean, I knew the exact 

[00:45:41] Becca: day it was gonna happen for sure, because then I would just like take all the drugs. We'd have a big party and we'd just swim out to sea and peace out, grandma. 

[00:45:52] Parry: Oh my God, this is highly disturb. But I love it. 

[00:45:56] Becca: Take my mind all Well that, any 

[00:45:59] Parry: [00:46:00] final thoughts, Linda?

[00:46:01] Parry: Any final things that we didn't cover that you think would be important for our listeners to hear? 

[00:46:06] Linda: Yes, Becca and I are going on a boat trip and No, I'm kidding. 

[00:46:12] Parry: And you're bringing an apple and a scale

[00:46:18] and drugs apparently

[00:46:23] Parry: and only four fingers each. 

[00:46:25] Wow. Big plans guys. 

[00:46:28] Parry: All was lovely. Has this has been a lot of fun Linda, thank you for in, this was 

[00:46:32] Linda: so fun. This was the most funt most. Podcast LinkedIn thingy I've ever done. So thank you. A girl Largo 

[00:46:40] Parry: the most funnest. 

[00:46:42] Linda: It's fun. Tell your I'll tell my friends. I'm gonna share the crap out of this.

[00:46:46] Linda: Thank you. Yes. Thanks guys. 

[00:46:48] Parry: Awesome. Well, to that point, we'll, uh, we'll, uh, give you some resources and things like that, so don't, don't you worry. It was great having you on. I really appreciate it. Big fan of MuckRack, and now I'm a big fan of yours. 

[00:46:57] Linda: Thank you. Likewise. All right, [00:47:00] thanks.